Friday, September 17, 2004

Jesus in India or Jesus in Heaven

I want to discuss the issue of Jesus in India or Jesus in Heaven, not only according to Muslim and Ahmadi perspectives, but also the Christian perspective because Mirza sahib's book 'Jesus in India' is especially for Christians as it is based on Biblical evidance more than any other type of evidence.First and foremost, Ahmadis find the concept of Jesus in Heaven to be quite amusing and are quick at mocking it. You will hear objections from Ahmadis such as 'how did Jesus get to heaven, did he fly, and if he flew, it must have taken him centuries or longer to fly through the galaxies in space'. They object further, 'what is Jesus doing in heaven, is he 2000 years old'? And further, 'why Jesus and no other prophet, was Jesus immortal, why was Jesus special and not any other prophet, why not Mohammed (s),'? And further, 'Jesus was sent to only the House of Israel not to the whole world, he came to preach the gospel, will he then come and preach Christianity and the Gospel if the same Jesus is to come'? These are some of the objections I wish to answer in this thread, after which I will prove that Jesus did not go to India from both Quran and Bible.
'how did Jesus get to heaven, did he fly, and if he flew, it must have taken him centuries or longer to fly through the galaxies in space'.
This is a famous objection of Mirza Tahir Ahmad, and to make the answer to this objection simple, there was no flight of Jesus to heaven nor did he have to pass through the galaxies of space to get there. When a person dies, does their spirit have to fly through galaxies for centuries in order to get to jannah? Of course not, so this objection is altogether ridiculous and a mockery of the power of Allah (swt).
'what is Jesus doing in heaven, is he 2000 years old'?
According to Muslim theology there exists no age in the realms of paradise nor is there any concept of growing old. Many Hadith provide us with the information that the age of a person who enters jannah will reduce to youth, approx. 33 years of age. As far as what Jesus is doing in jannah, why don't you ask yourself, what do you think anyone will do when they enter paradise? If you were to be blessed by God and entered jannah in the hereafter would you have nothing to do?
'why Jesus and no other prophet, was Jesus immortal, why was Jesus special and not any other prophet, why not Mohammed (s),'?
Now we come to an interesting subject. First I want to discuss the concept of being 'bashar' ie. mortal. No Muslim believes that Jesus is immortal, every living thing must die and the Quran is clear that Jesus too will die. As far as why Jesus and not other prophet, first of all one must understand that while the prophets do not exist in the physical world as we know it, it does not mean that they are not alive in jannah today. Here is proof from the Quran.'Think not of those, who have been slain in the cause of Allah, as dead. Nay, they are living, in the presence of their Lord, and are granted gifts from Him.' (3:169)This verse speaks of the shahid - those who are slain in the cause of Allah (swt), they are not dead but living, and are in the presence of their Lord. So Jesus is not special at all when it comes to being alive in paradise, because all prophets and martyrs are living in jannah in the presence of Allah (swt), including Mohammed (s) and his companions, and also those 10 sahabah who received glad tidings of jannah. As far as being special in the light of a "second coming", this is easily proven through the title which is given to him of being the "Messiah". The Messiah is a title given to Jesus, son of Mary alone and to no other prophet. The title of Messiah means to be "chosen" or "annointed". To learn how Jesus is the one and only chosen one (Messiah), visit my previous post, "Why is Jesus in the Messiah" other prophet needs a second appearance, but Jesus does. Does this make Jesus superior to all prophets? No, it does not make him superior, but it does make him a signficant figure for the Jews and Christians, and for the Jews and Christians alone. Muslims are not awaiting a savior because we Muslim are already guided by the Quran and Sunnah of the Seal of Prophets; rather Jesus's second coming is only for the House of Israel and the Ahlul Kithab and to show them that they were wrong in their views.
'Jesus was sent to only the House of Israel not to the whole world, he came to preach the gospel, will he then come and preach Christianity and the Gospel if the same Jesus is to come'?
And his second appearance is still for the House of Israel (the Jews) and 'those who say we are Christians' and claim that they are the disciples of Christ. He will be a witness against them. As far as preaching the Gospel and Christianity - no because Jesus was always a Muslim and he will always remain a Muslim, he is only going to appear to be witness against the Jews and Christians and will preach Islam to them and will be an adversary to them for making false remarks against him.
OrthodoxRegistered MemberPosts: 69(7/7/04 11:39 am)Reply
Did Jesus go to Kashmir?
The Book Jesus in India is authored by Mirza sahib and uses Biblical writing to prove that Jesus went to India, however it seems that Mirza sahib not only fails to mention the entire event as inscripted in the Bible, but also fails to refute the rest of the Bible which counters his arguments. For example, according to Jesus HIMSELF, as narrated in the Book of John, Jesus said the following:Jesus said to her, "Do not hold me, for I have NOT YET ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I AM ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (John 20:17) Did Jesus ever say according to the Bible that he is going east to find lost tribes? NO, rather he clearly said that he is ascending TO GOD, which would totally agree with what the Quran says:On the contrary, Allah raised him TO HIMSELF. And Allah is Mighty, Wise. (Glorious Quran 4:15 Mirza sahib, however fails to recognize the very statement of Jesus as to where he would be going after meeting the disciples. Matthew and Luke contribute to where exactly Jesus went.Soon after that the Lord hath spoken unto them. He was received into the heaven and sat on the right hand of God.” (Mark 16:19) Now was God in Kashmir? How did Jesus sit on the right hand of God's thrown?"And it came to pass, that while he blessed them, he parted from them, and carried up into heaven." (Luke 24:51) Is heaven in Kashmir? Its amazing because Mirza sahib stops at the meal Jesus ate after showing his disciples his own flesh and bones and eating food, but fails to mention the end of this chapter - verse 51 and not only fails to mention it, but more importantly fails to explain what is meant by it. Why only use half of the Biblical story, why not all of it?Now the Gospels were recorded 70 years after Jesus disappeared, so 70 years later, Jesus must have still been alive in India, so why did the disciples hide Jesus's migration to India and how did Jesus allow Paul who wrote his epistles 20 years after Jesus disappeared, how did Jesus allow Paul to spread a false religion to the gentiles, while he - Jesus was still supposed to be alive? How did the Gospels get corrupted and even written when Jesus was still supposed to be alive?Now from the Quran there is absolutly no evidance that Jesus migrated east, and the Quran was revealed 575 years later; nor is there any Hadith which supports that Jesus migrated after crucifixtion. The only verse Ahmadis give is the following verse:And we made the son of Mary and his mother a sign, and We gave them a shelter on a height, a place of flocks and water springs (23:50) Ahmadis claim there is no place in Israel which fits this description. They are wrong.Shelter on a height:Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee into the mountain where Jesus had appeared to them. (Matthew 28:16)Now notice that when Jesus survived the crucixtion, where did Jesus go to get away from the Jews to hide from them? Was it not Galille? Jesus always hid in GalileeMatthew 4:12 - Now when he heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee. But after I am risen again (from the cross), I will go before you into Galilee. (Matthew 26:32) Matthew 28:16 - Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. Water springs and flocks:Mark 1:16 - And passing along by the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishermen. A height and water springs:Matthew 15:29 - And Jesus went on from there and passed along the Sea of Galilee. And he went up on the mountain, and sat down there. Will Ahmadis ever understand?
Ahsen MalikRegistered MemberPosts: 6(7/7/04 12:38 pm)Reply
Jesus Alive or Dead?
I think people make way too big of a deal on this issue on whether Jesus is alive or dead. In fact, if you are debating with an Ahmadi; for simplicities sake just let them win on this one and assume that Jesus is dead for the purpose of argumentation.The point is, THAT DOES NOT make Mirza Sahib the True Promised Messiah. Use arguments from ...Ahadithhis lifestylehis writingsto prove that Mirza Sahib is not the True Promised Messiah.
A SadiqRegistered MemberPosts: 1428(7/8/04 3:43 am)Reply ezSupporter
Dead or alive?
I seldom take interest in the question whether Issa ibn Maryam (as) is alive or dead because like Br Ahsen Malik, my view is that the real issue is to analyse MGA's claim in the light of his own writings. However, I find the arguments of Br Orthodox quite interesting. I thought Br Riskclear was going to prove that Hazrat Issa (as) migrated to India and lived there for another 70 years or so, while St Paul was busy distorting his teachings in Palestine

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